The Luthier Community

You know, you look back in the years, when they built the guitars with old style ladder braced tops, and most of them had warped necks or high string action
of belly bridges...were the front of the bridge were diging into the tops..man the one's that did survided over the years were the best sounding guitars of all times.
well I think so....just last week I was at a job site and the guy had a old martin in the case out side...with a little small crack top..I tryed to get ...it
the guy would not sale it to me...at all....I tryed the old (it cracked) that will never be fix (deal)...did'nt work...

Hey Chris, thanks for the good words. And yes the twins are special, each with their own personality, next time you get to Oklahoma drop by and give these two a workout!

Ron, that's such a shame the mean guy with the old cracked Martin wouldn't let you take it off his hands! You try and help people and they just don't appreciate it!

Joe

Well, I've got a little update here on the Ditson sisters.

The ladder braced one is still holding it's shape, slight dip and slight belly, but it doesn't appear to be worsening. And it sounds great. I did change it out to extra light strings, 11 to 50s, and as I keep saying, it's a joy to play.

Now the x braced one has been feeling kind of left out. I keep trying it, and it's not bad, but it's not getting any play time, the ladder is that much better.

So up pops Ed's thread on how do you get more mid-range, feelings are hurt, tempers rise, but some very interesting theorizing going on. I'm listening and learning, then Scott van Linge shows up and shares his experiences with us. I go to his website, read "Sound is Round", print out and study all the posts, start plucking and strumming trying to feel the vibrations from collective and individual strings. Study Scotts analysis of Heshs bracing, etc.

What I find is, it's hard to feel the vibrations all over the top as Scott describes them. I can find some, and most are faint. So I print a picture of my bracing and compare it to Heshs bracing with Scotts critique, and see, that if Scott thinks Heshs is over-braced in places, then mine is way over-braced. So, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I pull off the strings, and go in with the small plane and sandpaper and carve away. Trying to match what Scott has posted from his experiences, to what I'm feeling with my arms, (one at a time), wedged into the box.

After a couple of hours, I string it back up and?

It's amazing! X-braced Ditson has come alive! It vibrated all over the top, I can trace the notes vibrating in patterns as Scott has described. I don't claim to have done a perfect job, or have it all figured out yet, and I need to go back in and smooth things up, but it's night and day different.

Now, I can't figure out which one to play! And there is a slight difference in the sound of each, but not enough that one is better than the other, and it might just be string weight. The ladder has x-lights, the x has lights on it. But they are both quiveringly alive!

Now from past experience, I have never liked light strings, or light weight picks. I normally play mediums and use an extra heavy pick. This x braced responds very well to bare fingers, and something I don't understand is, a heavy attack with a heavy pick doesn't overwhelm it, and a light pick makes it sound strong also. Scott describes this in his posting, about getting his guitar to just be able to rise to being hammered, it's amazing, he's got the goods!

And what I'm figuring out is, I've always played over-braced guitars, that require heavy strings and a extra heavy pick to get the over-built top to move. It's a new world!

I wish I could get some good pictures from inside the guitar to compare the bracing to what it was before. I tried but it just didn't work.

So, the only thing we have to fear is over-bracing! Well, and the occasional implosion of course. But hey, we like working on guitars remember! And believe me the sound and joy of playing a guitar that is truly alive is worth it!

Thank you Scott,
Joe

Yay! I can see the ear-to-ear grin from my house!

Way to go Joe!

Dennis

Joe...I just read your entire thread for the first time. Kudos on attempting such an experiment and comparative build. We've all learned a lot from your effort and excellent tutorial. You might want to contact John How and get his thoughts as well. He's a great guy and I know he'll be happy to help. Tell him I sent you.

So sit back and relax with the cool sound of your hard work and ponder your next masterpiece. Thanks for the education on these guitars!

Yeah, I bet you can Dennis!

And please guys, don't take this exuberance as a pronouncement of my greatness, it's just my excitement over a personal breakthrough in my own work. How they compare to other builders guitars, I don't know. That's one of my problems, I'm basically working in a vacuum here. One, I have never been a pro player, just a living room player, and I haven't had the opportunity to play any high-end guitars. I have had a few Gibsons over the years and have found them to be all over the place in sound quality. And the only hand built guitars I've ever played are my own, so I don't have much of a basis for comparison. That is why I started building, I couldn't afford to buy, the quality of guitars that I wanted. And from my first assembled stew-mac 000, they have been better than what I have played, given my limited experience.

I also have never played a Scott van Linge re-voiced guitar, so I have no idea whether I'm getting anywhere near what he is able to get from a guitar. But, I can say, I feel that by studying these descriptions of what Scott does, I have been given some tools to use, to bring my own guitars, to a level of performance that they sure weren't at before.

And that is why I am so enthusiastic,
Joe

Thanks JJ! I was writing this response as you were posting. This is one heck of a fulfilling interest we have here!

Another little update, in case you don't remember this is the bridge I put on these.




And here is a shot where one was coming up from a bad glue joint, but it shows the edge thickness.

And here is the bridge on the x brace now that I've done a Scott van Linge type alteration on it.




As you can see, it is much sleeker now and less weighty. It was a small footprint bridge already, which I got from a tutorial by Hesh on making a bridge for small body guitars. So the idea is to lower bridge mass helping to increase the responsiveness of the top to string energy, and the low, flowing profile helps the bridge vibrations to flow into the top. At least that is the way I'm understanding it.

Does it work? I don't know, after I re-shaped the braces this guitar sounded much better already with great trebles, and I think the small footprint was a part of that, once I got the braces reduced so the top could work. Now we're getting into nuances of sound improvement, but it sure didn't hurt any, and it feels great to play. Certainly no hard corners here to irritate the picking hand.

Final call, I like the looks and feel, and will continue experimenting in this direction, following Scott's sleek designs and Hesh's stealth bridge designs.

Thanks guys,
Joe

They look very nice Joe!

And where are the sound files?

Glen